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| KURT'S CATHARSIS |
Matt Barnes |
Angle's most controversial interview ever sees him shoot on Vince, Jericho, Brock, Cena, Batista... everyone!
Having been forewarned by Kurt Angle’s handlers to stay away from topics such as WWE, Wellness and Chris Benoit, we were concerned that this might end up being a somewhat sterile interview. Oh, how wrong we were; what follows is not so much a conversation with, but rather an auto-deconstruction by Kurt Angle.
In the hour or so we spent with him, we only managed to ask about half a dozen questions. While all of them elicited a response, they weren’t so much answers to our queries as catalysts for frequently rambling, sometimes incoherent soliloquies, ranging from ululation-laden tirades about WWE to didactic diatribes about Brock Lesnar.
There were the eccentric over-enthusiasms, such as Angle being on the level of The Rock and Steve Austin. And there were the scathing shoot comments about Batista’s workrate and how Chris Jericho will never be a top-tier star.
But then a question about TNA’s event schedule segued into “f**k you, Vince McMahon” followed by assertions that TNA could sell out 19,000-seat arenas, that Kurt deserves $3 million for an MMA fight and that Karen Angle was responsible for higher Impact! ratings.
Kurt’s interviews have become renowned as a cross between those of The Ultimate Warrior and Ken Kennedy. Toward the end of his WWE tenure, his state of mind and perception were called into serious question. But fact or folly, deception or delusion, he is nothing if not caustically candid. For better or worse, this is Kurt Angle’s catharsis…
FSM: TNA hits the UK for shows from 13-15 June. How much are you looking forward to bringing TNA to the British fans?
Kurt Freaking Angle: I’m excited about it. I just can’t believe how high our ratings are. I knew that we were doing good ratings, but I didn’t know we were pretty close to the Raw ratings, so I’m real excited. I think when the British fans see us, or when they hear how good of a performance we give, they’re going to say, “We can’t miss that!”
We take pride in our style of wrestling. We’vegot the heavyweight division and the X Division, and when you rate the heavyweight division against the cruiserweight division in WWE, it’s a ten versus a three. But, in TNA, the heavyweight division is at a ten and the X Division is at a nine.
It’s right there. We take pride in the X Division – I actually won that title myself, once. I wrestled an X Division match and I loved it. I wrestled Black Machismo and he actually beat me – we had a helluva match and I really believe in the X Division. It’s not the most important thing, but it’s keeping this company different from the others.
FSM: There was some criticism over the way Jay Lethal was booked after that match, at No Surrender, with Samoa Joe laying him out right afterwards. It kind of undid your work in putting him over.
KFA: Yeah – that was unnecessary. I think the best thing for him was to celebrate, revel in it, and for the rest of the X Division to come out and hold him up, and let that be a great win for them as a group. I have no idea why they did that with Joe. Jay Lethal had the biggest win of his career – you don’t go and ruin that. That was his night. Let him shine, y’know?
I actually had people telling me that I should’ve beat the hell out of him after he won, but I said, “Wait a minute – this is a moment where he can revel in this win. I’m not going to ruin it for him”. I even heard that he cried for real, because he beat Kurt Angle. It’s like beating Stone Cold or The Rock; to beat Kurt Angle and then get your ass kicked? He didn’t need that – it’s not the way to go.
FSM: So… what can UK fans expect when they come to TNA’s shows?
KFA: The thing that separates us from WWE is that you’re going to see the exact same superstars that are on TV. That’s the difference between TNA and WWE – not just the X Division and the fact that we have better wrestlers, but we bring all of our talent to every one of our shows. WWE can’t say that because Shawn Michaels doesn’t come, The Undertaker doesn’t come.
So you’re down to John Cena versus Randy Orton and Batista versus Kalip or Dalip or whatever. And you’re going to have those matches for the next six months because nobody wants to come. In WWE, I asked for that – I asked to go part time like those guys and Vince said, “I can’t do it. We have five hours of programming – you’re too important”. Well, screw you, Vince. I gave you seven years of my life. Five broken necks. F**k you.
At that stage I was already talking to Dixie, so I knew I was leaving and going to a better place, and TNA has exploded. We’ve not exploded in ratings, but little by little – 30,000, 25,000 fans a week – it keeps going up. One week we did a 1.1, then a 1.2, then 1.35 – that’s small ratings and it’s about two million people, but the next week, God willing, that’s going to be two point one million.
So, after a little while, you’re doing three million people. Now you’re doing the same ratings as SmackDown, so then what do you do? You go after Raw. They’re doing four million, so we take it to that level. It’s just a matter of time. Thank God, we’re starting to run major cities. We used to do small towns so we didn’t have any overheads. Here’s an example: I wanted to do the Arnold Classic in Columbus, Ohio. I wanted to go across the street, where the NHL team plays, because in Columbus there’s nothing to do!
At the Arnold Classic, everybody’s there – there’s 178,000 people with nothing to do. So what did they do? They all went to the UFC show and it sold out. My manager gave TNA the opportunity to go there. We had the opportunity to have that arena [the 19,000-seat Nationwide Arena] and for those 178,000 people to say, “Let’s check out TNA!” So it would’ve sold out. It cost, like, $24,000 dollars for the arena, but we would’ve made $400,000.
Instead we ended up in Troy and Youngstown, where we did great and sold out, but they were 3,000-seat arenas. TNA is taking small steps, which is smart, but when you have a chance to do the Arnold Classic, you have to go after it.
FSM: One of the reasons you went to TNA was the reduced schedule. We interviewed Chris Jericho recently and, when talking about choosing WWE over TNA --
KFA: (Interrupting) Money.
FSM: Well, he made a good point that a lot of guys are heading to TNA for the schedule. But now the company is running more shows, including tours overseas. Does that concern you?
KFA: Nah. Listen, we’ve made Kurt Angle bigger than TNA. So, what do you do with somebody that’s bigger than your company – exploit them and run them into the ground? No. Kurt Angle is probably going to do 45 house shows a year instead of 100, so I don’t have to worry about doing too much.
I take pride in the fact that TNA has every superstar on the card when they do the house shows. But if I’m getting overworked, it’s, (mimes picking up a phone) “Hello Dixie, Jeff, I’m staying home.” “Fine!” (Puts down imaginary phone and picks up another) “Vince, I need to stay home.” “No, we need you!” “But you don’t understand, my neck’s killing me, I can’t feel my hands, I can’t sleep, my wife’s on me…” “No, you’re needed on the road.” “Alright Vince, bye.” (Hangs up)
It’s a different ball game. TNA wraps me up in cotton when I’m not wrestling – they love me, they care about me, they appreciate and respect me. Vince never had respect for me, he just saw me as, ‘cha-ching!’ And he paid me as a wrestler – I wasn’t a merchandise guy. John Cena is a gimmick. Ask him how much money he made last year from wrestling alone, and then ask him how much he made outta merchandise. Now ask me how much money I made!
I’ll give you an example: when I was with WWE two years ago, if I’d stuck with them, I would’ve made $3 million that year. How much would I have made in merchandise? $170,000. John he probably made $2 million, but you know how much he made in wrestling? $500,000. So he made $1.5 million in merchandise.
See the difference? Vince shells out the cash for Kurt Angle to wrestle, but he won’t let me make money on merchandise because I’m an Olympic gold medallist, and it’s hard to sell a non-gimmick. It’s not a gimmick – I can’t put “Olympic” on my t-shirts, so it’s hard to sell a real deal wrestler. John’s a gimmick guy – he didn’t make as much as me, but he made more money from merchandise than he did from wrestling.
I got paid big money to wrestle. It’s the same with TNA. They’ve invested a lot of money in me, so my job isn’t just to be the top guy and the leader, it’s to make the other guys as popular as me, which means not just being as big as TNA; it means being bigger. They want our guys to be mainstream – they don’t just want them to be wrestlers. Dixie and Jeff want me to be a world famous TV star, a world famous actor and a world famous wrestler.
They know that even if I become an actor and get $10 million a film – if, God willing, that happens – I won’t leave TNA, because I made a promise and I keep my promises. I made Vince a promise; to stick with him until my neck couldn’t handle the schedule. That’s when I asked to go part time and he said no.
At that point WWE was so stagnant. I was wrestling the same guys all the time and I was bored. I started watching TNA and I was like, “Oh my God, just look at AJ Styles! Look at Abyss! Look at Samoa Joe, he’s awesome! Look at Chris Sabin or Alex Shelley or even Sonjay Dutt! I wanna wrestle these guys! Why don’t we have guys like these in WWE?”
So I asked, “Vince – what are you doing? Why are we picking up guys like Batista, who are 6’5”, 300 pounds and can’t even wrestle?” This was back when he couldn’t wrestle – he can now. I was saying, “Why don’t we pick up AJ – he’s only 190 pounds but he’s f**king awesome!” And Vince was like, “Kurt, you’re the real deal, so you can be 5’10”, 200 pounds, but we need the big guys.” “No we don’t, Vince – don’t discriminate! Let a 5’9” guy win the title!”
FSM: Well, Chris Jericho was the first Undisputed Champion.
KFA: He did with Jericho and it didn’t work. That’s because he made Jericho Stephanie’s slave. Remember when he wrestled Hunter at WrestleMania? It wasn’t Triple H versus Chris Jericho, it was Triple H versus Stephanie.
Chris will never reach the top echelon that Undertaker, Hunter, Shawn, myself and Sting are at. Chris Jericho will never make it because Chris Jericho is 5’9”, and that’s wrong. It’s just wrong. And he didn’t win an Olympic gold medal – those are the two reasons.
But Chris never missed a match, never got hurt – and I pray he doesn’t get hurt, because I love Chris Jericho. And I loved Chris Benoit and I loved Eddie Guerrero. Those three guys, I had more respect for them from the WCW than anybody else. And also Booker T, by the way, God bless him.
But Jericho never missed a match unless he asked for time off. He never got hurt – he was the most dependable wrestler in WWE history, and Vince f**ked him. He didn’t let him get any higher than he did; all he did was have him make guys like Cena and Orton. Chris Jericho’s a superstar – he can talk, wrestle, he can do it all. But because he’s 5”9… it just doesn’t make sense.
Vince likes big guys, but TNA doesn’t care – you can be 5’6” and win the title. You think Taz ever had a chance of winning the WWE Title? No, because he’s 5”7. Vince had him beat me, but he felt it didn’t work, so he made Taz an announcer. He thinks it’s a big man’s world, but obviously in MMA it’s not.
FSM: Speaking of which, you were at UFC 81 for Brock Lesnar’s loss to Frank Mir. What did you make of the fight?
KFA: Brock was awesome. He was completely incredible, but he made a rookie mistake. It’ll never happen again – Brock will win the UFC Title, he’ll go on and have a winning streak and, when he’s done, he’ll retire a rich man. Brock cares about money. He’ll train his butt off and he’ll fight until he can’t fight any more, but he just wants to make enough money to retire.
You know, as much as Brock has put me down, we wrestled when I was in WWE. He said I was too small to beat him. Now, I’m an Olympic gold medallist and he’s an NCAA Champion – there’s no comparison. So I dared him to get in the ring. I said, “Let’s have all the wrestlers surround the ring and we’ll wrestle, and we’ll see who’s the baddest man in WWE”. I whupped the shit out of him. Then he went and told the internet that he pinned me in 30 seconds.
I just thought, what an immature idiot he is. He could’ve said, “You know, Kurt is tough. I had a hard time with him.” He didn’t have to say he lost, he didn’t have to say I pinned him – all he had to say was that Kurt’s a tough son of a bitch. Instead, he said, “Father Time hasn’t been good to him, I pinned him in 30 seconds, blah, blah, blah”. Well, I whupped his ass and he got humbled.
But Brock’s a great fighter and a great wrestler. He should have beat Frank Mir – they should never have stopped the fight when he was on top. Frank didn’t have a chance against him but, when he went after him, I think Brock hesitated for a second. That’s his only weakness: when he gets into a high-pressure situation, he tends to crack, and I’ll tell you exactly what I’m talking about.
Take college. In his senior year, Brock was supposed to dominate everybody; he ended up losing to a kid from Iowa. Next comes pro wrestling; in the biggest main event at WrestleMania, in the biggest arena of all time against Kurt Angle, Brock – who hit the Shooting Star Press a million times – misses the move. Brock goes to pro football; he can’t even make the practice squad. Brock goes for his first UFC fight; he’s beaten the shit outta the kid, the kid goes for his leg, he taps out.
Brock has a problem with pressure. He has a mental breakdown and, when he gets in a clutch situation, he tends to fail. If he gets through that – and I think he needs to see a sports psychologist – nobody on the planet could beat him. Did you see him take Frank Mir down like he was nothing?
FSM: Yep – took him down in seven seconds.
KFA: He was even out-punching him, and Frank realised that the only thing he could do was attack the legs, because Brock’s legs aren’t as big as his arms. But all Brock needed to do was drop his weight on him. Instead, he tried to get under it and get out this way and that, and Frank pulled him the opposite way. All he had to do was just sprawl and drop his weight on him and he could’ve pounded him right there. So, basically, he cracked in a pressure situation.
Brock and I have our ups and downs. We’re friends, but it’s all about ego – mine as much as his, I won’t lie. We probably need to fight at some point to settle it, but I’m not doing it unless Dana White pays us at least $3 million each. I’m actually considering fighting Randy Couture or Tito Ortiz. Randy’s first, but Dana has a lawsuit on him, and I’m not gonna fight in the UFC. Dana won’t let me wrestle and fight at the same time, but he doesn’t get it.
He doesn’t realise that people know, when a guy’s in a pro wrestling match, that’s different from being in a UFC fight. But it’s alright – Dana and I get along. I love the guy, and he actually treats me very well. I’ve found a promotion – I can’t tell you who, but we’re working on a fight with Randy. If that falls through, Tito’s up. We’re actually the same weight, so neither of us has to change. It won’t be 205, it won’t be heavyweight, it’ll be me and him at 215 just going at it.
I don’t wanna have a warm-up match – I’m too big for that right now, too popular. I won an Olympic gold medal, there’s no need for me to have a warm-up. I’d rather just go against one of the top guys and do it. If I win, great. If I lose, then that’s okay. It’s not going to hurt me, because all I’m doing is a dream of mine. I just wanna do one fight.
I told Dana White that and he said, “Kurt, you’re making so much money in wrestling, don’t worry about it.” That’s because he doesn’t want me to go with another company. But if Dana doesn’t want the fight then I’ll find somebody else to do it. I’ve already found somebody else, who’ll pay me more money than Brock got for his UFC fight, which is crazy because this is a smaller organisation.
It’s not the IFL, it’s not EliteXC – I’m not going to tell you who it is. Basically we’re making a deal and, once it happens, Dixie and Jeff are going to give me the time off to start training. I won’t have to be on the road as much, so I’ll train and do my fight and get it out of my system. You know what, whether I win or I lose, I’m gonna shake the guy’s hand and say thank you.
FSM: Let’s go back to TNA. Your wife, Karen, is heavily involved as a performer. Were you surprised by how well she’s adapted to wrestling?
KFA: The first time she got into the ring, I looked at her and not only did I see a beautiful woman that could act – I saw money. I went backstage to Jeff and said, “Do you believe what she just did?” And he said, “Kurt, she’s big money, huge money. I want to sign her!” I said, “Well, you have to talk to her. She’s a housewife and a great mother, and that’s all she ever wanted to be.”
He went and talked to her and she signed a contract. I had nothing to do with it, because my wife is her own woman and she can do whatever she wants. She only has to be at TV and pay-per-views, but she’s done incredibly well. I give her a lot of credit – in two-and-a-half months of 2007 she became the Knockout Of The Year. Two and a half months!
But that’s how much impact she’s had since she’s been there. Every week we’ve been getting higher ratings. They put Karen on the TNA website and they keep getting 50,000 more hits than before. But, not only has TNA had an interest in Karen, Hollywood now has an interest in her! So, her and I have had opportunities. I’m going to be doing movies and TV, and Dixie and Jeff want me to be mainstream. And they want my wife to be mainstream along with me…
For the rest of this feature, check out issue 26 of FSM – available at WH Smith and all good retailers. (For US readers we are now carried at Borders and Barnes & Noble, so check for local availability or click here to subscribe.)
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